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Ready to boost your confidence?
Don’t underestimate the power and importance of morale right now.
In the age of internet memes, celebrity gossip, social media, clickbait articles and online haters, it’s easy to get pulled into that vortex of negativity.
Trust me, we get plenty of hate, especially these days. But you’ve got to keep going.
So, how can we ditch those bad vibes and get the confidence we need to take back control of our lives?
To help us out, today we’re here with Elle Russ, the best-selling author, a TV and film writer, comedian, and host of the popular Primal Blueprint Podcast.
We’re chatting about…
- How to ditch jealousy and bad vibes
- Why our confidence is under attack and what to do about it—this one’s really important
- How to speak up and say ‘no’
- How comedy helps us find the edges
- And tons more.
Elle Russ: Cultivating Self Esteem & Saying ‘NO’ with Style
Alright, folks. Returning to the show, Elle Russ is the best selling author of The Paleo Thyroid Solution, a TV and film writer, host of the popular Primal Blueprint Podcast.
And, fun fact, her new book about confidence is so edgy that I can’t even officially read the title on this show.
So, how’s it going Elle?
It’s going great, and thanks for having me.
Abel: Say the confidence title in the way that you just said it before we started recording.
Sure. Alright, well you can see it behind me, but it’s Confident As F U * K.
So, we all know what that means, but we’ll just refer to it as “Confident As F” from now on.
Abel: I had so much fun reading through this book.
As I was saying before we started recording, I don’t often get to read books that feel new, that are about topics that aren’t usually talked about, as specific as confidence and self-esteem.
And the way that it shows up in your book is even cooler.
So, let’s start right there. It seems like our confidence is under attack. But why did you decide to write this book now?
Well, throughout my life, and I’m sure this is true for people listening, you start to see a theme of people who come to you for certain things, and what you’re good at.
And so, throughout my life, people would continually come to me for either a cheerleader pep talk for confidence and self-esteem or because they needed to just stand up and declare their worth in a job interview, you know, or if they didn’t get a raise.
Even people within our company over the years have been like, “I got to call Mark for a raise, what do I do?”
Not that he’s a scary guy, but it’s just, some people are afraid to speak up.
And so I noticed this over time, that this is what people were coming to me for.
Even if it was like, “I’ve got to stand up to this bully.”
Or, “What do I do in this situation?”
And essentially, people are drawn to me because of that.
Now, that might sound kind of cocky, but that’s really not the case. Because confident people are not cocky, and are not braggadocious and all of that.
But it’s just one of those things where like, this is a skill of mine.
However, that being said, highly confident people have pitfalls, and one of them is the inability to be vulnerable.
We don’t want to appear as weak in any way. So showing any kind of human emotion is like a “no-no” for the un-coached confident people out there.
So, this book is for people who are seeking to gain confidence and self-esteem, but also for highly confident people who kind of need to refine and maybe tone up their confidence.
Because other pitfalls are such like, for example when you’re really confident you’re often outspoken, so you can often lack some diplomacy, meaning speaking before we think.
Where other people who might be lacking some confidence in certain areas, they actually have a lot that we can learn from. And that is, they’re more diplomatic, they’re able to receive, they’re okay with other people taking control.
So, highly confident people have some pitfalls, and those people are not weaker than us, they are complementary to us if we see that.
So, that’s what I learned over time, too. And, I mean, you read the book and there’s so much to this.
But I was really highly confident in a lot of arenas, but I got hit a couple of times in life, and I had to really clean up a lot of stuff to become confident as F.
And what I mean by that is inside and outside.
Because, Abel, there are people that can speak in front of 50,000 people and appear extremely confident, yet they can’t speak up in their relationships or friendships or whatever it is.
And that’s not confidence, that’s just performance confidence.
Anybody can gain the kind of performance confidence that you and I have. And that’s not what I’m promoting.
If you’d like to get there, great, but that’s something that can be learned and trained and coached over time.
So, it’s more important, really, to have it on the inside.
And that’s what I mean, it’s all-encompassing, confident as F, you know.
Abel: What’s the difference between confidence and cocky?
Well, here’s the thing. So, being proud of oneself is a wonderful attribute.
However, when you see those people when you’re at a party or something, we all know the person, the dude or the girl that’s kind of bragging, trying to impress people—that’s not confidence, that’s real insecurity.
If you feel like you have to tell people how much you’re worth and that they should like you for A, B, C, or D, then you really care a lot about what other people think of you.
That’s not confidence. It’s not true confidence. So, we notice that.
We don’t like it when we see it, and I just see that as insecurity.
Sometimes the loudest person in the room is the most insecure person in the room, often, and sometimes the quietest person in the room is the most confident.
Yes, I believe you should have inward and outward confidence.
You’re going to have to, at some point, speak up, meaning outward confidence to get what you want in life.
But this is not about, look, you could be a stay at home mom, you’re still going to need confidence because you’re going to have to stand up to some kid’s B of a mother at the PTA meeting, or whatever it is.
You have to maybe protect your children. You’re still going to have to have confidence.
And it really affects every area of our life, from the bedroom to the boardroom.
You’re never going to get nowhere without speaking up and declaring what you want and moving forward in life and propelling yourself.
So, that’s why I was like, “These are the tools to really own it, get into the self-examination arena.”
And let’s get good with this and scrape off the barnacles of life, and let’s move forward.
Because otherwise there are things in life, you’re sitting around going, “God, I wish I would have said that”.
There’s a lot of regrets, there’s a lot of “Well, I could but I’m afraid to.” a
And so, then you never do, and so you’re back to where you were before you even considered asking, and that’s not going to get you anywhere.
Abel: And biting your tongue and staying silent in a lot of instances, it’s interpreted as being nice, but maybe not, right?
Yeah, not at all. So, look, there are times when you have to edit yourself.
So confidence is really being authentic with yourself and authentic with others, and that’s why people really are drawn to it, that’s why it’s attractive.
Because people are out there that are authentic, that are speaking the truth. They don’t care what other people think, and they’re telling the truth. People love this.
Not only that, confident people are reliable in lots of other areas is why we’re drawn to it.
But at the end of the day, if you are what Dr. Glover calls a “people pleaser”, that’s just a general term, but he wrote a book called No More Mr. Nice Guy, and I put an excerpt in my book, because it’s very important.
Abel: I love that book.
So, here’s the example, let’s say you have a friend who, let’s say they worked at the same company for 10 years, but they’re always like, “I’m always working the holidays, I never get the right days off.”
And people are like, “Aw, poor Steve, his problem is he’s just too nice.”
No, he’s not too nice, he’s a liar. People-pleasing is being a liar.
And what happens and what leads to this is, with people-pleasing you’re afraid to tell someone what you really think because you’re afraid of what they might think or how they might view you.
And this could go in any kind of relationship. You could just be going along with what anyone else says.
The thing is, at the end of the day you’re not being authentic, you’re lying.
And what that does is leads to some covert contracts, some passive-aggressive behavior, and then you’re in the background silently resenting that you never spoke up.
And so, if you know someone, they’re like, “Oh, they’re too nice”.
No, they’re probably not too nice. They might be nice. They might be nice people. But it’s really being a liar.
And that’s really what it comes down to because it’s not telling the truth.
Now, there are times when lying is appropriate. Let’s be real. If I’m at your grandmother’s house for Thanksgiving and she’s wearing an ugly sweater and asks me what I think of it, I’m going to tell her it’s awesome. Okay?
Let people have some wins. Confident people choose battles wisely.
Confident people choose battles wisely. @_elleruss Share on XHey, if I’m at someone’s house, right, and someone’s 90-year-old grandfather says a racial slur, hey, maybe that’s not my place to teach about tolerance at that point.
I’m going to let that go, let the family deal with it.
So, it’s not about choosing every battle and speaking up at every turn, but it is about generally moving through the world being confident.
And what does that really mean?
Because self esteem and confidence, inside and out. It really means that you get to a point where you generally have a feeling that you’re going to prevail.
Abel: Yeah. So you’re willing to take that risk.
Whereas being passive, you feel like there’s a safety in that, but as you said, it turns into passive-aggressiveness, you’re not winning.
And passive-aggressiveness is actually one of my least favorite qualities in the world, because here’s what happens.
The person who’s passive-aggressive perceives a threat from someone else that usually is not the case, and then they act on it in a very passive-aggressive way.
Usually the way in which they act is some way to subvert the other person, or hoping that the other person fails.
And I talk about this a lot in my book.
They do secret moves, like the passive-aggressive person might intentionally leave stuff in the kitchen in the sink, because they know it bothers you and they’re like, “I’m going to get them.”
Well, you know what, that’s just going to backfire on you.
It’s no way to live in life. And it’s doing a lot of testing with people, and you just got to be straight up.
Life is better this way, Abel. It is so much better this way. And I’m often admired for it.
And the thing is is that one of the best compliments I can receive is when someone’s like, “Hey look, let me ask your opinion, because I know you’re not going to BS me”.
“Oh my gosh, great. Yes, I would love that.”
That’s so much better than walking around on eggshells around me, never knowing if I’m telling the truth or am I just saying things to be nice.
People come to me because they know they’re going to get the truth.
People come to me because they know they're going to get the truth. @_elleruss Share on XAnd again, there’s diplomacy involved in this, there’s editing, but at the end of the day, the general notion of that, yeah.
Abel: It’s a slippery slope.
But I think one of the things that came up for me anyway in the book is, you definitely never have it nailed, you’re never there.
And there are always things that come up where, in Mark Sisson’s new book he talks about unwinding some of his businesses that got ahead of him, and he should have quit before, when he knew he should.
He knew it, but he kept going. And it was kind of an ego-based behavior. And I think we can all be more honest about that.
Whether we’re biting our tongues or maybe being a little bit too outwardly, overcompensating for not having confidence by trying to seem confident.
Another really interesting point that you brought up though is the difference between performance confidence and actual confidence, because I think people who haven’t lived their life backstage as we kind of have, right, might not know that distinction.
But a lot of the people who are out there with the lights on them, with thousands and millions of people who are listening, are the most crippled by insecurities, in a lot of cases.
Maybe you can just talk to that a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, they’re confident on the outside seemingly, but they’re messy on the inside.
So, here’s the thing. In assessing another person and whether they’re truly confident, you go to the interpersonal interaction versus what they do in the world.
Because here’s the thing, you can own your own law firm and be a badass. I talk about an example of John in the book, an anesthesiologist, who’s extremely confidence in his abilities.
A real badass job, right? Like, I mean, you have to bring people back from surgery and if you don’t, they’re dead.
So, that’s a high stakes thing. Extremely confident.
He’s also a spear fishermen, extremely confident sport. You’re wrangling 150 pound sea creatures five miles out into the ocean.
I mean, it’s like a 3,000 an hour calorie-burning endeavour, extremely frightening, and you have to hold your breath for five minutes.
Like, you need a lot of confidence for that. So this guy, John, has confidence in his abilities about things.
And he’s also good looking and fit, totally confident in those arenas.
Ah, but he can’t talk to his neighbor about something really minor. And he can’t speak up in relationships, you know what I mean?
So, that’s not a good life either. And I would say that it counts more to have it on the inside.
And by the way, this again is about, sometimes people who are less outwardly confident get a little bit offended or defensive when people say “confidence,” because they think it’s the outward, but that’s not really true.
One of my best friends in the world, he’s not the loudest guy in the room.
He’d be at a party, let’s say he’s standing in the corner alone.
There might be some people that are like, “Oh, that poor guy. He’s all alone in the corner.”
No, not poor guy, he’s totally confident. He’s comfortable in himself.
He’s not there to impress people, he doesn’t care if he talks to people.
And that’s how I am, too. I walk into every room like I own it.
That sounds a little cocky, but let me unpack that. I don’t care if one person in that room knows my resume, knows what I do, is impressed by me.
I don’t even care if they have a conversation with me. I’m just open to observe.
I’m open to, like, possibly learning about people. I’m just comfortable in my own skin, and myself, wherever I go. I wish that upon everybody.
That’s the goal. And that doesn’t mean you have to be an extrovert.
Abel: Yeah, and I kind of take issue with the introvert/extrovert thing, because I’ve taken that test many times, and I fall on both sides, like every time.
Yeah.
Abel: And I think when we try to say, like for me, I was a very shy child. And in your book, you bring that up.
And obviously this isn’t true for children, I don’t think, but shyness is kind of narcissism in the form of a quote.
And that link I think is so important, because being that nice guy who’s never going to speak up and say the kind thing, which would be appropriate, which would lead to truth and good behavior, you would rather bite your tongue about something stupid and think that your neighbor is going to be mean to you and not like you ever again because you asked this one request of them, right?
But that’s a narcissistic behavior.
You don’t have any interaction with this person and your only reason for your behavior, or lack of behavior, is because you think that he won’t like you because you do something or say something or whatever.
And that’s inherently narcissistic. Maybe you can dig into that a little more, too.
Yeah, it’s a little bit like self-aggrandizing in that people, like really, so many people care.
Well, here’s the thing. So, we all care what people think of us, to some degree.
We want people to like our books and listen to our podcasts, sure. But I guarantee, at least for myself, I’m not checking like, “What are the downloads numbers?” every week.
Like, “Oh my god, do people like me?” Looking for compliments.
No, I’m just putting up the content.
And I’m like, “Hey, like it or not, whatever, it’s all good.” You know what I’m saying?
Abel: Yeah.
And so I’m kind of releasing what other people think. Although, yes, I hope they like it.
But listen, you can’t win. There’s going to be people out there who don’t.
There was someone who contacted me and was very offended by the title of my book.
All right, well, you know what, sorry to hear that. Don’t read it then. Don’t follow me.
So, you’re going to have those people. Shyness is completely overcome-able.
I have seen the worst case scenario with a person who couldn’t even talk to anyone, not even like a barista at Starbucks. Okay?
So, if you’re at ground zero with confidence, where you’re so debilitatingly shy, then the move might be to get a social coach who can start to help force you to make some moves, take you to a mall, get you to talk to the people that work there, because often they’re going to be very friendly.
So, just on the note of shyness, I want to say I have seen a complete 180.
I know someone who had to go through that.
And to this day, you would never know that they were ever shy. It’s the most shocking thing.
Do they still have some moments that they go through where they get that feeling inside?
Yeah, but then they take their coaching, and they go through it, they muster through the uncomfortability.
And that’s the key to confidence, because speaking up for the first time about anything is uncomfortable.
It’s nerve-wracking, your heart rate is up, the nerves are there, it doesn’t feel good. Neither does performing for the first time, at all.
It’s shaky, you’re like running to the bathroom to poop your brains out 20 minutes before the show. I mean, this happens at first when people start performing.
It’s totally natural, but you walk through it anyway. You do it anyway.
So, if you need someone to guide you there and you’re at ground zero, it’s totally possible.
So, if you’re out there and you’ve been debilitatingly shy, you might want to do that.
Like, when I walk into a room, let’s say, and I say I feel like I own the place. And I told you how I felt about that.
When you walk into a room and you’re looking to impress and all that, “It’s very all you, isn’t it? Oh, gross, it’s all on you. It’s all about what you think.”
And again, if you just get rid of yourself and put yourself like, “Let’s see who’s out there, what can I learn?”
Things that are outside of oneself versus putting it internally.
It’s also just a state of perpetual victimhood that you’re continually setting yourself in, and until you get out of it.
And every time somebody I’ve coached has taken that first step to speak up, even in a small way, sometimes they’ll call me and they’ll be crying afterwards because it was tough and it was emotional, but on the other end of that, there’s like this pride and this feeling.
You can just tell how good they feel, because they simply spoke up or they finally declared their worth, you know what I mean?
Abel: Yeah. And there’s a catharsis in that, don’t you think?
In speaking up you mean? Yeah, because here’s the thing, like, let’s talk about ancestral health.
First of all, back in ancestral days, people—and Mark wrote about this in Primal Connection—no one sat around feeling sorry for themselves, because you’d be dead.
Like, you got to pick up and move on and find the solution.
It’s a forward thinking. We do what I call past-urbating, right? You know what I mean?
We’re simmering in the past and our victimhood and our childhood stories, all the parental garbage. That’s not really primal.
And also, in general, you needed to be valued by a tribe. We still do.
We need to feel valued by at least one person, and I don’t care if that’s the guy that works at 7-Eleven down the street or a friend, you need somebody.
And back in the day we needed to feel valued by our tribe. So, it’s important, we want people to like us.
This is the connection between us, but I’m saying that that connection is so much better when it’s transparent and authentic and honest. And that’s why I really try to only hang out with confident as F people, because they’re straightforward.
I mean Mark Sisson is very like this, a lot of people in the industry are very like this—just no BS, straight shooters. They’re not going to lie to you, and I prefer that communication.
I don’t want to dance around with moody people, “Are you okay? Dah-dah-dah-dah”.
It’s just not good vibes. It never feels good, and that’s how you know.
No one ever feels good walking on eggshells around someone, ever.
Wouldn’t you just rather have someone come out and say it, you know what I mean?
Abel: Yeah.
So, back to victimhood. We didn’t have a lot of time back in the day to simmer in the past or simmer in how this situation felt.
We propelled ourselves to move out of it.
So, I’m kind of suggesting like, let’s get back to the original roots on this.
Purpose Of The Ego
And again, the other thing that bothers me too that I write in the book is this.
I love spiritual teachers. I read a lot of self-help books, I love all this stuff.
However, I’m tired of people blaming the ego and saying it’s absolutely completely terrible, and we should get rid of it.
You know, we’re not living on a hippie commune, okay?
People are going to come at you in this life, you know what I mean?
Abel: Oh, yeah.
It’s not like some mutual arrangement between 20 people, we’re all going to act sweet to each other.
Some spiritual teachers would say like, “Oh, well, the whole point is just to get to this place where you’re unmoved and unfazed by everything.”
I’m like, “Is that really primal?”
I’m still in this meat-suit.
We have an ego for a reason, you’d be in a psycho prison if you didn’t have an ego.
We need it to distinguish between the subconscious and the conscious.
So, while it’s a cause of a lot of problems, and it needs to be checked, I’m also still for indulging it.
Part of that indulging it is speaking up and sometimes that means it has to be in a tone that isn’t “spiritual,” you know what I mean?
Abel: Yeah. Yeah.
Like, for example, someone asked me yesterday, I didn’t put it in the book, but I had a scenario on a project that was a project that was mostly mine and someone had some input in it.
And then they kept going back and forth, and I said, “I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to do that.”
They kept coming back. And it just like was unrelenting.
Finally, and like, I love this person, we have a great relationship, but at the end of the day, I finally had to go,
“Hey, enough’s enough. That’s it. I’m not doing it. This is the end of the discussion. That’s it. We’re done.”
Now, that sounds really harsh, but it escalated to that point, I dried all the diplomacy up.
Sometimes you have to be firm.
Some people would be like, “Oh, well, you could have approached that with like, ‘Hey, I just.’”
No, because sometimes you need to be really ultra, again, using my confidence as dominance a little bit in that scenario, but not in a mean spirited way to take someone down or be a mean girl, just to be like,
“Hey, we’re done. Enough.”
Hey, we talk to kids like that. That’s what happens, right?
Hey, enough, put the phone down, right? And that’s enough.
And I bring this up, which is, I speak up in life, but I really get challenged on it.
I’m not patronized often, I’m not bullied often.
But there has been like 3 situations in the past 5 years where some random chick at my gym in the steam room or sauna will come at me like a mean girl.
And they always regret it, because they picked on the wrong person.
Now, some people would say, “Well, why didn’t you just let that go? Why did you come at them or call them on that?”
Because again, speaking up in that scenario, in whatever the scenario is, I’ll be like, “Hey, you’re not going to talk to me like that.”
Or whatever it is, that fuels my confidence.
I still to this day, when I think about those incidents, oh my god, love it, patting myself on the back.
Because again, think about it, in ancestral times, you’re standing up like, “No, you’re not coming over here.”
Right? You have to protect yourself and the tribe.
Like, when threatened, nobody was sitting there being sweet and loving, and I’m not saying that that’s not the way to be.
It’s not like, “Hey, go out and be a jerk.”
Confidence is not about that.
But it’s also not about completely being unaffected by things and letting everything go.
Abel: Yeah.
Because I think you need to speak up for yourself.
Now, I can let more things go, because I speak up all the time, and I don’t have this issue.
But when you don’t it’s like, “Well, how do you determine that?”
Well, you got to choose your battles wisely.
So for example, if I’m in the parking lot and I’m just driving, and someone’s going the other way and they flip me off.
Well, you know what? Whatever.
But if you come at me directly in my face at my gym in the sauna, you’re going to get a mouthful of words from me.
And every time they’ve been shocked because, again, when you bully a bully they usually acquiesce.
They shut up, they’re shocked. Sometimes you need to do that.
Now, I don’t care if that person learned a lesson that day but they certainly learned it with me and it’s not going to happen again.
And secondly, maybe they did learn a lesson in being a little bit careful as to the strangers they decide to come at with this stuff.
And every time that has happened, which is rare, it feels great that I spoke up and defended myself.
And again, not like trying to tell them I’m a great person.
But by being like, “Hey, what you just did, unacceptable. Not taking it. You chose the wrong chick on the wrong day, girl. Don’t even.”
I mean, you know, I went off. It felt great.
It feels yucky inside in that moment, but afterwards, oh my gosh, it’s so empowering.
It fueled my confidence even more.
So, it’s not about like looking to start crap with people, or using your confidence as dominance.
But sometimes you have to and sometimes that fuels confidence.
Abel: Yeah.
And it’s important. It’s important to do it instead of just let it go.
So, for example, let’s say you keep getting patronized or bullied by some like supervisor or something like that.
So, you could just quit and go away or accept it. It’s going to keep digging into you every time they do it, or you can call it out.
Now, it might be uncomfortable, maybe you’ll get fired, who knows?
You got to prepare for these things.
But at the end of the day, I guarantee you, because every time it happens, that person who normally doesn’t speak up is so fueled with this level of self-esteem.
Because they chose them, they chose to not be mentally abused and patronized and spoken down to by somebody.
That’s really important. There’s adult bullying going on, again, like at my gym.
And I like watched it happen five years, three times.
Okay, I hope it doesn’t happen again, but if it does, boy I’m ready.
So, it’s really important to adopt these tenets, and to see that the ego can be really unchecked and terrible.
But it also can really fuel us in a positive way. And I am about indulging that ego, occasionally. You know, indulge it.
If someone’s speaking down to in a really crazy way, you might have to go,
“Hey, don’t speak to me in that tone again or I’m hanging up.”
Abel: Yeah.
That’s forceful. That’s actually going to get the message across.
That’s going to feel good and fuel confidence versus not doing anything about it.
Or even soft-spoken when you say something about it.
Now, everyone’s different. Everyone’s not like downtown Chicago me.
I’m from downtown Chicago, we’re on alert, growing up in the city, we’re ready, ready to pounce.
And that’s the other thing too, is confident people are nice. I may be a forceful presence, but you know me, everyone knows me, I’m really nice.
I’m a super connector, I love babies and dogs. I mean, I’m just sappy.
I cry at stupid Hallmark movies. Like, I am still that person.
But in my alpha work-life, and with what I do I am a forceful presence.
But people are usually drawn to that because they want it, and they want it for a reason.
And the reason is because they know they’re probably not going to get effed with, and they’re going to be admired in whatever arena they’re in.
And that’s really the goal. Because Abel, I used to hire people for living back in the day.
I would rather hire a confident person who had less skills, and most employers do feel that way.
Because confident people are confident in their ability to do a thing, whether they know it or not.
Usually, if they have some modicum of confidence.
Abel: Yeah.
So, even if they don’t know the skill, you know they’ll learn it. They’ll be proactive, they’ll also be on time.
Employers would rather hire that type of personality than someone who is actually skilled in the thing.
How to Stand Up For Yourself
Abel: Yeah. And you talking about that, I can feel my heart beating faster.
Standing up for yourself and all of that. Like, I’m pretty well known for keeping the peace.
I speak my mind, but for the most part, I really do try to find our connections, and the things that we agree about.
Whether you’re a carnivore or a vegan or anything in between, like, let’s agree that we’re all health-nuts here.
But when I was doing The Wild Diet, shopping it around to different publishers and all that.
I’m not going to say any names, but there was this one particular meeting where they invited me and they were very interested in the book.
And it was all these female executives, and they’re just like, “Abel, how does it feel knowing that people only listen to you because you’re a good looking man?”
And I’m like, “Shake it if you got it, baby.”
And I’m so glad that I said that instead of not saying that, or getting defensive. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Abel: Instead of just being like, “What?” And cowering to that, because that is so poor, that is so weak, that is so nasty.
Such sexist adult bullying like that from professional people, when hundreds of thousands of dollars are at stake in real business circumstances? That is unacceptable.
And I think if you do bite your tongue in an instance like that you’re going to regret it forever.
And also, those people will get away with it and they’ll do it again to somebody else.
So what you’re really doing there, even if it falls flat, nobody laughs and they hate you forever, they’re not going to try that on the next person they think who is only listened to because they’re some sort of good-looking face, or something like that.
I’m so glad you brought that up.
And here’s the thing, to this day, you still feel proud and good about it, thinking about it even fuels your self-esteem.
Still to this day.
Abel: Yeah, and they didn’t get that deal. They are the ones who lost the deal because of that, I should mention.
And also too, usually, again, when you bully a bully of any kind, immediate respect.
They immediately respect you because they’re not expecting it.
Also, too, if you don’t want to get bullied, well, you better get some confidence because bullies prey on that vibration.
They seek it out and they know you’re going to be a good victim.
I mention it in the book, and this is not about a crappy comment, but Mark Sisson is such a pro-woman guy, he let me host his podcast.
He started Primal Kitchen with a 32-year-old woman. He’s so pro-women.
But when we were talking about doing The Paleo Thyroid Solution and we’re just kind of brainstorming in his house.
And he said, “Well what if you got like a doctor to write the book with you, but it’ll be written by both of you on the cover, but they’re not going to get any money and you’re going to really write it, but just to kind of bring street credit to it?”
Which by the way, that’s a suggestion most publishers would make when you’re writing a medical type of book.
Abel: I got that recommendation.
Yeah, but here’s the thing, immediately this is what came out of my mouth. Verbatim.
I said, “Mark, I’m a female writer. Do you know how many glass ceilings I had to break to get here? I’m not sharing credit with some dude who’s a doctor, who didn’t write the book, I’m just not doing it.”
And without hesitation he went, “Oh yeah, totally get it.”
Like he just forgot in a second, he didn’t think about that. He’s not thinking about male/female, he’s not a female writer.
And the conversation is over. We moved on, there was no bad vibes, there was just a quick thing, as if I said it to you, like, “Hey, man. No.”
And he was like “Alright, cool.” Because he’s confident as F too.
And that’s another reason to want to hang out with these people as well, because you can do something like that and no one takes it personally, it doesn’t become an argument.
He just probably hadn’t thought about it, right?
He’s a male and he just didn’t think that way, and so then he’s like, “Oh, that makes sense, yeah.
Okay, cool.” And then moving on, that’s it. That’s the thing.
Abel: But you didn’t attack him. It’s okay to disagree, right? It’s okay.
It’s okay to disagree. And what if I didn’t say anything though, Abel?
I’d be regretting it because some guy got credit, or someone else got credit, where they actually didn’t know.
I love the doctor on my book. He’s my doctor, he contributed greatly to it, of course, but I wrote it.
And so I would be simmering in regret forever because I was too afraid of a publisher who had his book in my hands.
“Oh well, if I don’t agree with everything Mark wants, then…”
No, it was more like, “Hey, this is a conversation.”
It didn’t feel right to feel that that was going to be how the book was going to be laid out, so I had to go, “No, I can’t do it.”
Abel: Yeah.
I can put him on the cover. We can denote it in another way, where it does say on the The Paleo Thyroid Solution, “in-depth commentary by integrative physician Gary Foresman, MD”.
Great. Perfect. That was enough credit for what I was willing to do there.
And as a female writer, you have to understand too, especially when I was in comedy, I had to have this discussion a couple of times.
And I didn’t put this in the book, but I’d be writing sketches with male comedy writers. There are more males than there are females. And now, it’s probably more even.
But when I was doing it, I was still one of the only chicks in the group, kind of thing.
And I looked at this sketch that we wrote up with this guy and I say to him, I go, “Hey dude, you gave yourself all the funny lines. Nope. We got to change this.”
Abel: Yeah.
And I could have not spoken up then too, but you’re going to have to speak up, especially if you’re a woman too, because you’re almost likely in a very male-dominated industry.
Even paleo, all this stuff, so male dominated.
I was speaking last year at an event, I was the only chick on stage, speaking. I was like, “What?”
So again, it’s a little bit of a different thing for females sometimes, but I’ve had to come across it many, many times.
I also co-wrote a couple of scripts with a male writing partner.
I’ve had a couple male writing partners, but this one in particular, awesome dude, whatever.
We go to the meeting with some producers. And this is why this really sucks.
Sometimes when you’re a female writer and you have a male writing partner, they defer to the male thinking that the guy is like the genius behind the thing and is the head writer, when in fact I actually was.
And that’s a tough thing. And you’re sitting there and they constantly are deferring, even if there’s women there, they’re asking the guy.
Because guys are the ones that are funny or guys are the ones that, “Oh, maybe he’s the real writer, and she’s just kind of along for the ride.”
And so I’ve had to deal with that in a few circumstances.
This is why it brought me to that point with that conversation with Mark, but again, so glad I spoke up because, again, if the cover of that book were any different, I’d be regretting it to this day that I acquiesced to something I didn’t want just because I was afraid he may or may not like the idea.
He could have come back and said, “Hey, I hear you, but it’s still important. Let’s consider it further.”
But he didn’t, he just said, “Oh no, I get it. Okay, moving on.”
Abel: And he wouldn’t have liked you more if you said the opposite, right?
If you said, “Yeah, have the doctor come in and take all credit for this.”
Mark wouldn’t have liked you more, and the doctor wouldn’t have either.
They would have liked you less, because then the passive aggressiveness comes out later, because everyone’s unhappy, because this is not the right setup.
He probably liked me more because I did speak up in that moment.
Abel: Exactly.
I’m sure Mark totally appreciates that.
He’s like, “Oh yeah, okay,” and I just needed to point out something he didn’t consider, and that’s okay.
It’s not like his job to be thinking about women and their careers and all this kind of stuff.
And he really is a pro-woman guy, so it’s not about misogyny there.
But again, had I been like, I was a person who had never gotten a book published, here he is.
I could have just been like, “I’ll do whatever he says, whatever he suggests. I just need to get this done. I’m just so grateful to even be here.”
Ah, that’s such a weak position. That’s such a weak position. I don’t want people to take that position. We can do better.
Abel: We can. We have to.
We have to.
Abel: We have to do better, because the world will push you around and it’s, in many ways, it’s hostile to certain characters and certain situations more than others.
I would love to hear more about being a female writer, and in some of the circumstances you’ve been in, I would think it could get extremely hairy and really, really toxic.
But when you look out there on social media, and a lot of the conversations that are going down between men and women and everything in between now, it’s very toxic.
I’m sure that you learned how to navigate that in a healthy way, to some degree.
So what advice would you offer the people out there who seem to be squabbling amongst the sexes?
Well, it depends on what environment you’re in. I think it’s tough like for us women in the corporate world, too.
We have to feel like we have to be extra alpha.
I remember at a time when I was in the corporate world, I didn’t feel like I could look pretty, because I had hired and managed like a 100 men throughout California.
So I didn’t want to even be seen as pretty in any way, so I’d put my hair up in a bun, I wore fake glasses at the time.
Because if I’d interview people I didn’t want them to know how old I was, I wanted to look a little bit older, because I was so young, but I also didn’t want to look pretty.
I didn’t want to be any kind of thing, I wanted to be taken seriously.
You know what I’m saying? And so that was 20 years ago, I don’t care about that now.
I would just show up as who I am wherever I am.
But again, there are these things that we think about us women that a lot of guys don’t. You know what I mean?
So, whether that’s, “Oh, I don’t wear a dress to this, or a pretty low-cut blouse. I put my hair up.”
Because we want to be taken seriously, we want to be taken as smart, you know what I mean?
And so when it came down to sketch comedy and writing, I just had to take the helm.
I was one of the most prolific writers at the theater, so every guy or every girl wanted to write with me because they knew I was going to end up being a great sketch.
There was one time where a co-writer and I gave credit to a third writer who really didn’t do anything on a sketch, and I tell you, to this day it bothers me.
No, I don’t hold grudges. I’m just kidding. But to this day I was like, “I shouldn’t have done that. Why did we do that? She didn’t write anything in that and we gave her credit on that”.
Like that was just so gratuitous, that just that didn’t feel right either.
And frankly, I wouldn’t want credit on something that I wasn’t a part of either. You know what I mean?
So, it was a little bit harder. So what do I do? Never work with a male writing partner?
No, because one of my male writing partners is a fellow comedian is so hysterical, we write amazing stuff together, but I did have to prep him before one of our meetings.
And I said, “Hey, they’re going to defer to you and you need to make sure you are lobbing it back to me.”
Like, I literally had this conversation before this meeting with some producers, after the other experience I told you about.
And I said, “You have to make sure that you are deferring to me, that you give me credit for ideas and all of this stuff, because it’s just going to be so one-sided towards you.”
Abel: Yeah.
Just the nature of this junk, it’s terrible. I mean, there’s a lot of women out there that still would defer to man.
And just, again, it’s our upbringing, it’s culture and society.
So we had a long talk about that, and he did a little bit, but I don’t think as much as he should.
And then afterwards, I said, “You need to do better next time, man. Did you not see that they were completely deferring to you the whole time?”
You have to put it in my lap, you have to direct it towards me, you have to say things like, “Well, Elle came up with this really great idea on this section of the thing which is whatever.”
You have to lob wins my way. Or else we’re not going to be seen as an equal partnership and they’re not going to see me as a talented person.
And so I eventually changed it, right?
I was like, “Okay, let me have the conversation prior.”
Because, again, he’s a guy, he doesn’t see it this way.
And even though the producing team was a male and female, they kept looking towards the dude.
Even though I was actually the ring leader of the entire thing to begin with and our jokes were evenly spread, you know what I mean?
He didn’t come up with all the jokes. And I just came up with the framework.
It was absolutely equal, and if anything I was probably more of the head writer.
So again, I think that boosted a lot of my confidence, clearly, as being in a male-dominated comedic environment where I ended up being one of the top performers at the theater for many years, and it continued to fuel my confidence.
And also my confidence in writing, and that’s actually how I became a writer, was by writing sketch comedy.
And then I was like, “You know what? Maybe I should blow this up. I can do like SNL sketches all day long, but they’re four pages. What about a screenplay? What about a sitcom?”
I was the one that approached people and was like, “Hey, you want to figure this out with me? You want to do this?”
And we sat down and we did it, but I lead that charge.
So, no one’s going to ask you. Guys are always in sketch comedy and are going to need a chick to be in their sketch, right?
But you need to make sure like, “Do I like this role?”
Also too, “How am I being portrayed?” Sometimes guys don’t realize it.
There’s some things, by the way, in comedy that are just never funny and are kind of rules of the game.
And this is such a side note tangent, but I’ll just mention it.
For example, you never joke about a woman’s menstruation in any way. It’s never funny, it’s never ever funny, ever.
The other thing you don’t do is, so it can be very funny in sketch, like if you’re watching SNL or you’re watching something, it could be very funny when a man in the sketch is like, “I’m blowing up! And I’m crazy!”
Right? But if a woman does it, oh boy. Because she’s just a nag, because our society has that social construction of women yelling and being naggy.
Sorry to say, that’s a stereotype right on us. So that’s never funny in comedy.
So those are things you learn over time, that you just can’t have women yelling. Is it fair? No.
But it’s the way that it is and it’s the way that it’s perceived. So we don’t do things like that. Yeah.
Abel: It’s fascinating, and through comedy, you find where the edges are kind of, right? You find what boxes we’re in.
Through comedy, you find where the edges are. Share on XIt’s like, “I didn’t even know I was in that box”.
But one thing I can say to your point, being a guy who’s probably been in a lot of those situations, we are clueless to what a woman has gone through and is up against.
And I’m sure I’ve offended people when I haven’t tried to, just out of my own ignorance, but I think it’s only fair that we extend that both ways, where we try to educate each other on what we’re up against and where the walls are and what is funny and what isn’t and why.
Like, “Why would it be like that?”
That’s obviously not fair or equal. It’s kind of sexist but I don’t know, we’re in this soup, what are we going to do about it?
We have got to figure this out, we have to work together, you know?
Yeah and back to sketch comedy again, here’s another thing that I intentionally did.
So, I was at a comedy theater for many years. I intentionally didn’t date or sleep with anybody in the group.
Abel: Nice.
Intentionally. I was like, “I am not doing this.”
Look, you have crushes, you have comedy crushes. There’s lots of people.
It’s like a restaurant, lots of incestuous. But guess what happens?
Someone dates Joe, Joe breaks up with her, then hooks up with the next girl. And now guess what?
You’re not seen as a professional person, no one wants you in your sketch.
Or somehow you’re different and then you got everyone talking about you in that way.
Again, I’d rather let the fantasies go by, “Really, do I want to date this person? No.”
Okay, there were some love connections made in my theater and marriages that happened.
So, I’m not poo-pooing all of that.
What I’m saying is I made that intentional, conscious effort to be always seen as a professional.
And to this day, people still call me and I have a great reputation with everyone at that theater because I never ruined it because I didn’t get into some drama with the girls and the guys.
And I saw how new women now hated each other, and how many guys hated the women, and oh my God it went on and on.
And you know what? Those guys aren’t going to call those chicks when they need someone to be in their scene that they’re filming next week, but they’re going to call me.
Do you know what I mean? They’re going to call me.
And because they respect me as an equal that way and so I chose not to do that. And that was a conscious decision.
And listen, I was there for many, many years. There were lots of people that I had little crushes on and was attracted to.
But I was just like, “Really though?”
I really thought it out, I was like, “Alright, but this probably is not going to be like… ”
Again, if I felt like any of them were going to be some true love connection, maybe I would have been open to it, but because I knew they wouldn’t, and I was like,
“This is probably going to be temporary anyway, let’s not go there. Let’s just not go there. It’s not worth the reputation.”
And so I think women have to think about that a lot, too, and where guys don’t necessarily have to think about it.
Abel: The confidence for a woman to say “no” in a situation like that, right?
Yeah, that’s a big one. You’re a target in a lot of ways.
Like my wife Alyson used to work at video game companies and she was on an all-girl video gaming team and toured all around, and like what you’re subjected to, it’s so outrageous.
But there’s so much strength. And actually you and Alyson in a lot of ways are built similar in this world.
You show up and you’re not particularly tall, and you’re slender and fair skin, fair hair, and all of this.
So, a lot of people have assumptions that they could probably steamroll you and just talk all over you or dominate you in some way.
But as you were talking about before, I wanted to bring this up, too.
The tone of the voice that you used, I remember I think it was at one of Mark Sisson‘s parties back in the day.
You came up to me and it was just like you’re so confident right away and it was just like we were in mid-conversation right away.
And that doesn’t often happen, you know what I mean?
But that’s what it takes to have a real conversation and to be there with a real person and to not talk about the weather but to get right into it.
And I just wanted to say, I think you’re awesome, but your wife is awesome.
Abel: She’s way cooler than I am. Way cooler.
I might be team Alyson on this one, if I had to choose. No, I’m just kidding.
Abel: Well dude, watching her shoot guys down is one of my favorite pastimes.
I love it. Yeah, she’s cool.
The Confident Tone of Voice
Abel: But what you were saying about the tone of voice that you use.
This comes up so often with our dog, who doesn’t always listen. She’s a yellow lab who just came that way, right?
She’s just nuts and whatever. So if I’m just like, “No Bailey, stop doing that.”
She’s never going to listen.
But if I’m like, “No.” Everything stops.
The camera comes in, the spotlight’s on her, and she gets it.
And men are like dogs in that way, is what I’m trying to say.
Well we do, we have this animal primal nature.
So sometimes, again, you have to exude your confidence as dominance for a voice tone, and eye contact, whatever it is, to get the point across.
Abel: Even if you’re small, especially if you’re small.
I’m five two, man. And what’s funny is when people meet me in person, they are so shocked that I’m not like six feet tall.
Abel: Interesting. Me too, unfortunately.
They’re like, “I thought you were so much taller.”
Probably because of my personality, probably because my first book cover where I’m standing there and it looks kind of like Amazon-y, I get that, but they always think I’m so much taller.
In fact, sometimes I wear really these kind of Hawaii slippers that are like, the heel is like this big, it makes me like three inches taller.
Because sometimes I actually feel it’s just a little bit more comfortable being a few inches taller.
But yeah, being a short, small pretty woman and yeah, people are maybe going to discount you or whatever it is, or you might feel like you have to speak up more.
But here’s the thing, if you’re at work, you’re going to be in a board room with a bunch of dudes, who’s going to get their idea?
You have to learn to interject and speak up, you have to learn to command the room.
Sometimes that takes a certain tone of voice, it doesn’t have to be nasty it just has to be commanding.
Abel: Just for a second.
Just for a second, just to get in there. And that takes confidence, you know what I mean? That takes the ability to speak up.
No one really wants to work with people who are insecure and not confident. You don’t trust it.
And so, especially in any career you’re going to need it. And frankly, you’re going to need it extra if you’re an artist.
So, creative people get downer-ed more than anyone in this world.
Whether you’re a musician or actor or whatever, the world is like kind of going, “Good luck with that, nice try. Have fun.”
And so you’re going to get downer-ed, you’re going to get discounted.
And it’s even more important if you’re in a creative profession that you gain confidence and self-esteem so that you can move forward, because you’re going togethit from everywhere, especially if you’re in a creative environment.
If you like know you’re going to be a lawyer, well you know all the benchmarks to get there, you know to do this, to do this, to make partner.
There are no benchmarks in any creative profession. It is an absolute kind of crap-shoot, of who knows where I go.
Radio stations don’t just put out ads like, “Hey we’re looking for a radio show host.”
That just doesn’t happen.
So, you got to go make your own way.
If you’re an artist at home and you’ve got great paintings, no one’s going to come to your door.
You have to learn how to sell them, you have to put yourself out there, that is self-promotion.
And so you can simmer in a false humility of like, “Well, I don’t want to brag.”
And some people were taught this.
Like, “Don’t tell people your abilities, don’t brag”, but it’s not bragging.
How are you going to get the job when the person in the interview says, “What are your strongest abilities?”
Really? Is it bragging or is it touting your strengths?
You have to be able to firmly say those in a way that they’re going to believe you.
Listen, this is why con men, this is why it works. Now, that’s false confidence, they usually get found out, and if they don’t, that’s just inner turmoil that will jack them up for life anyway, so they essentially are not living a great life.
But they’re instilling a false sense of confidence in people who trust them. And so they get their money or whatever the con is.
That’s confidence, man. That’s a misuse of confidence, of course, and I wouldn’t suggest that anyone do that.
Bullying is a misuse of confidence, as well.
Bullying is a misuse of confidence, as well. Share on XAnd again, this is where confident people really need to refine it, because you know what, listen, a lot of highly confident people were bullies back in the day.
It’s just true.
And so that can kind of carry over into adulthood unless they are refining themselves in these ways.
Confident people encourage other people to succeed. We don't compete. Share on X
Confident people are friendly, they’re encouraging others to be confident.
If you’re confident and you’re out there you’ve got to pep talk people, man. Pick people off the ground, encourage them, that’s the best gift you can give back, is that.
Abel: Yeah, and it’s education for everyone around you, the bullies, the people who aren’t speaking up.
You being a female comic and speaking at events that are male-dominated, the females in the audience are looking to you as that example.
It’s so amazing when you see someone just break that, shatter that ceiling.
Like recently, in guitar, there have been a lot of female shredders, just amazingly technical and talented.
And I saw some talented men, growing up playing guitar, but I don’t really remember watching, as a kid, female shredding guitarists.
Not that shredding guitar even matters, but now like little young females are rocking the guitar, as little kids, starting there, with no glass ceiling, not that glass ceiling I mean.
And that’s what we all need.
We all need the Go-Gos.
Abel: We need people like you to stick out and do it, and you’re going to be the early adopters, especially as women, right?
But that’s what it takes, and you’re such a great example.
Well, it’s getting so much better, too. And like, growing up, I loved The Go-Gos.
They were one of the only examples of all chick, right? You know what I mean? That was so empowering.
I remember, I dressed up as them for Halloween and I wanted to be the drummer, because that was the only reflection that I saw.
Until later, and now it’s getting so much better. I don’t know if you know the band, they’re mostly electronic music, Khruangbin.
They’re really awesome, there’s a female bassist, her name is Laura Lee and she’s such a badass.
Abel: That’s great.
And it’s so cool to see her just jam on this bass in this incredible band. And there’s so much more of that nowadays, thank God.
And thank God there’s more female comics and women are seen as funny. Thank God for the Kristien Wiigs of the world.
Great, it’s all getting better, but it’s still there.
Abel: Yes.
And I remember people being shocked sometimes being like, “Oh my God, you’re so funny,” or whatever, and I’d be like, “That’s not a shocking thing to say to a guy”.
But they’re saying it like, “I’m so surprised”, and it’s like, “Ahh!” Nowadays it’s better, it’s way better.
The Melissa McCarthys of the world, all that stuff, that makes my day.
Because women are empowering within comedy, they’re great comedy writers, and it’s getting better and better.
But still, it’s there. And people are still going to defer to the men.
Where to Find Elle Russ
Abel: Yeah. It’s going to be uphill, but if we can communicate and be good to each other then we’ll get through this and make it better.
Elle, we’re almost out of time, but make sure to tell folks where they can find your book and what you’re working on next as well.
Yeah, so you can find the book on Amazon, you can just type in Confident As FU*K, and you can also go to ElleRuss.com.
Since my first book is about thyroid health, if anyone’s suffering with thyroid issues, there’s a free thyroid guide on my website.
Just click it, it gives you all the tests you need to get, how to get on the right path, so you don’t even have to buy my book to get on the right path there.
I’m working on a new podcast, actually, I’m still going to do Primal Blueprint of course till the day is done, but I’m going to do my own podcast with the co-host as women focusing on empowerment.
Not just for women, but for everybody.
And confidence and all the stuff we love to talk about, and hopefully eventually it’ll come out with an audiobook and everything else, and Paleo fx, I’m doing a talk there on my book this year.
So, lots of good stuff, lots of fun.
Abel: Beautiful. Well, Elle, your work is very much appreciated and needed right now, we could all use a little bit less shame and insecurity, and more confidence and more sticking up for ourselves.
So, thank you so much for coming on the show, you’re welcome anytime.
Thank you so much for having me.
Before You Go
Here’s a recent comment on an episode of The Fat-Burning Man Show, from Riddle Rhymes. He says…
“Abel, you rock, my brother. I followed your work for years. Keep preaching the truth about real food.
I adopted a primal lifestyle eight years ago. I am a 61-year-old Renaissance faire actor. I can sing, dance, and perform spontaneous poetry for eight hours in 100 degree heat while dressed in heavy period costume. My 20-year-old cast mates are astonished. I have no peer on the field of fun.
Keep setting people free, my friend.”
Hey, Riddle Rhymes, thank you for those kind words. I would love to hear you recite poetry in that 100 degrees.
And you know, I wonder if I saw you in Texas at some point. I love Renaissance fairs and festivals. I love the music. The drinks can be quite fun, the food as well.
Some of the channels that we follow and watch are actually some of the Renaissance old-school cooking shows inspired by people living centuries ago and that sort of thing.
I think it’s fascinating. I think this is such a lost art.
And what people are doing as Renaissance faire actors and performers, you guys are really my heroes.
I think you’re setting people free, so I very much appreciate you getting in touch.
And also, the fact that you have such endurance, I’ll just comment on that.
Because for me, as well, I noticed that when I started to transition to a cleaner way of eating, that was more based on traditional fats instead of carbs, grains, vegetable oils, low-fat products, Gatorade or whatever the heck else you’re supposed to have to perform better or be healthy.
You know, when I transitioned, I noticed as well that I could suddenly stand there and perform, and sing, do music or do things like this now.
I haven’t eaten yet today, and I’m not done recording, I still have a lot more to do. But you know what? I feel good and I like the energy that comes from fasting, once your body transitions into that mod. So that’s wonderful.
And you also notice that you can adapt to really cold weather. I’ve played guitar on roof decks, and in outdoor gigs and stuff like that, when I couldn’t feel my fingers. But you can still keep going.
And then the heat, oh man, I remember playing a show out in Texas when the sun was setting and it was reflecting off of a lake and shining in my eyes, I was sweating through my dress shirt, in my dress shirt at this private function.
Sweat all the way through that shirt, and then it got so hot that the guitar literally stopped working to pick up. It just cut out.
So if your body can keep going longer than the electronics, that’s a very good sign.
So all of you who are listening, wondering what all of this is about, whether you’re a performer, a creator, a musician, entrepreneur, or anyone else, you can get more energy, you can make sure that you optimize and balance your body in the way that it works.
When you get out of your own way and you fuel clean, and you get all the nutrients that you need, you start to heal some of these things that have been broken and damaged in your body. You’d be amazed by what you’re capable of.
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