We’re here today with Dr Charles Livingston, a Board Certified Chiropractic Physician and the man behind Fat Loss Factor.
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Today Dr. Charles & I talk about:
- Why taking supplements every day isn’t a good idea
- A chiropractor’s take on why he chooses not to vaccinate
- How to get started in intermittent fasting
- And lots more!
Here’s the show.
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Dear Abel,
I have listened to every episode of the Fatburning Man Show, and am really grateful for the many, many useful ideas you continue to bring to my attention every week.
I see you as a no-nonsense, evidence-based kind of guy – although of course with many of the topics you discuss with your guests, the science doesn’t tend to be conclusive yet.
However, this last episode was a great disappointment. It seems irresponsible of you to give a platform to such blatantly anti-scientific views, without properly challenging them. Are you aware of the damage Dr. Livingston’s anti-vaxxer propaganda might cause in a country with so many scientifically illiterate people as the US?
A few years back in the UK, we had the much publicized case of Dr. Andrew Wakefield, a physician who claimed to have shown that the triple Measles/Mumps/Rubella (MMR) vaccine causes autism in children.
Because of his falsified study in the Lancet, vaccination rates went down the toilet in the UK, with the eventual result that Wales saw a spectacular outbreak of measles this year. Measles is by no means a harmless disease – the WHO estimates that worldwide there were 158,000 deaths from Measles in 2011, down from 630,000 in 1990 – thanks not least to improved vaccination rates. Wakefield was struck off the register in 2010.
On the other side of the coin, the evidence for most of the claims chiropractors make for the efficacy of their treatments is thin on the ground, to say the least. In the UK we had a case, in which the British Chiropractic Association unsuccessfully tried to silence a critical science journalist (Simon Singh), by abusing the UK’s flawed libel laws.
To top it all off, the logic of ‘detoxing’ Livingston promotes is also highly suspect – check out the Wikipedia entry for ‘Detoxification (alternative medicine)’ for a first impression…
Just wanted to get this off my chest…
Better luck next time & keep up the good work!
Simon
I enjoyed this podcast & heard some interesting things I wasn’t familiar with, despite my extensive background in nutrition and wellness.
@ Simon – I can see you are passionate about your viewpoint, however it is far more complex an issue than I feel you are presenting it to be. Not knowing you I can only base my impression in your statements, but it seems you may have an anti-alternative medicine bias. First, there is quite a bit of research available documenting the efficacy of chiropractic treatments. Second, vaccinations have not and are not the cause of improved health worldwide. Herd Immunity is based on far “junkier” science than what I’ve encountered with most anti-vax people. Additionally, while the vaccination rates in the US are at, or above, target levels (according to the CDC) there continue to be outbreaks. Interestingly, in the past 10 or so years at least, each of these outbreaks occurred within a fully or nearly-fully vaccinated population. Further, it is well documented that at least 2/3 of childhood deaths from diseases such as measles are actually due to poor nutrition. Third, a very famous scientist found guilty of falsifying evidence linking autism to vaccines also happened to have been accepting illegal funds while in a position of power at the CDC. Muddies the waters tremendously, in my opinion.
there is a huge difference between mmr polio and pertussis vaccines vs the flu. I have seen the occurrance of pertussis increase significantly do to the lack of vaccination. So tell me, how does a child in India or the inner city protect himself from these illnesses without a vaccine. As a nurse, id love to know!!!
Very seriously, if you have thought of an alternative to keeping polio at bay i am ready ti hear it. In the meantime– vaccinations have been a godsend to India’s children. http://www.unicef.org/india/health_3729.htm
@ Kelly –
Lets get some things out of the way: I too believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (that’s why I listen to Abel’s fantastic podcast). I believe that the self-healing ability of our bodies is amazing, and that the placebo effect is going to be a large part of the efficacy of any medical intervention (alternative or not). I have no doubt that things like Tai Chi, Meditation, Yoga etc. provide real benefits to health and wellbeing. I also agree that chiropractors can provide relief to lower back pain sufferers (although for most of their other claims – relief of infant colic, carpal tunnel syndrome, mental health issues etc. – good evidence is hard to come by). For more details see:
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/chiropractic/Pages/Evidence.aspx
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-end-of-chiropractic/
I also agree that the pharmacological industry is often putting profits before other considerations, and is using legal and not-so-legal means to boost sales. (See Ben Goldacre’s book “Bad Pharma”).
However, this doesn’t give alternative medicine carte blanche to claim what they want and get away with it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
I freely admit to being biased against alternative medicine to the extent that it tries to give itself an air of respectability by cloaking itself in sciency-sounding language. As has variously been pointed out: “If a technique is demonstrated to be effective in properly performed trials, it ceases to be alternative medicine and simply becomes medicine”.
As to the story about the fraudulent scientist working for the CDC – that’s a non-starter. It turns out Poul Thorsen was in no way the towering figure of ‘vaccinations don’t cause autism-research’ that he is now made out to be by the anti-vaxxers. The strategy is clear: Because they can’t win the scientific argument, they resort to an ad-hominem attack on a minor figure who possibly really did behave in a criminal way. However, his alleged financial misdemeanours have exactly nothing to do with the validity of the science he was tangentially involved in. No muddy water there. For the full story see: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-curious-case-of-poul-thorsen-fraud-and-embezzlement-and-the-danish-studies/
Simon, really appreciate these clarifications. I agree that if alternative medicine is going to refute conventional, we need the facts!
Simon, Kelly, and Julia, thank you so much for your candid thoughts. My goal with the show is to start a conversation, and it appears we’ve done that. 🙂
Interviewing a chiropractor who chooses not to vaccinate his children is not the same as advocating that no vaccine is appropriate regardless of circumstance, and I don’t believe that’s what Charles was saying, either. But he did open up about why he made that personal choice, and I applaud him for his honesty.
Instead of just being pro-vaccination by default or anti-vaccination without exception, I consider it far more productive to get people to think objectively – are there instances where vaccination can save lives? Absolutely! Are there toxins in the same vaccines? You bet. It’s a cloudy issue, and one that deserves a great deal of debate. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts here!
I don’t disagree with you here, Abel, but to be fair, the guy threw around a lot of crap science and didn’t get a lot of hardball in return. The vaccine argument IS cloudy, just not for the reasons he said. He threw around a lot of other trash as well, though at the moment it’s slipping my mind. I’ll give it another listen and see what I thought.
that said, I love your show and this one was no exception. Just because I disagree with your guest doesn’t make the show crap. Good on your for getting people talking. At the very least, I’ll gladly listen to anything this guy says about mass building, strength training, and cutting because one does not get that jacked accidentally, especially with his genetics. I’d have loved to hear a bit more about wellness chiro, though. It sort of sounded like, “I heal things like the liver and the thyroid by fiddling with your spinal cord.” I really hope there’s more to his practice than that. I’m sure there is, but it seemed pretty one note. Like spinal adjustment = healing your liver. I’d have loved to hear him say more about how he dealt with patients specifically. Almost everyone i know thinks that Chiropractics = adjustments and that’s all there is to it.
Clearly you need to do more research on Chiropractors. There is way more to them then just “Adjustments”. Secondly, one CAN get that jacked even with part asian genetics. Had it ever occurred to you his father might be an American, a very big American? Who are you to judge someone you know nothing about? Thirdly, everyone is entitled to their own opinions on vaccinations. Dr. Charles took a huge leap by talking about his beliefs on vaccines, and I don’t see too many other people doing a video on the web talking about it. I say kudos to him for speaking how he feels whether or not YOU agree.
I personally have gone to chiropractors for things other than
“adjustments” and it’s quite amazing the stuff they can do.
@Amanda – you’ve attacked @Joe Auerbach in a really fearful, defensive way for two things he didn’t actually say and have assumed his comments were negative when they were quite the opposite:
Joe Auerbach:-
“I’ll gladly listen to anything this guy says about mass building, strength training, and cutting because one does not get that jacked accidentally, especially with his genetics.”
You:-
“Secondly, one CAN get that jacked even with part asian genetics. Had it ever occurred to you his father might be an American, a very big American? Who are you to judge someone you know nothing about?”
Joe’s saying that he’s IMPRESSED and would LIKE to know more about Charle’s techniques. As for the genetics statement, if you’d LISTENED to the podcast, you’d know that it was Charles HIMSELF who brought up the point of his own genetics and the possible disadvantage they presented. How is he ‘judging’ Charles at all? He’s applauding him!
And then…
Joe Auerbach:-
“I’d have loved to hear him say more about how he dealt with patients specifically. Almost everyone i know thinks that Chiropractics = adjustments and that’s all there is to it.”
You:-
“Clearly you need to do more research on Chiropractors. There is way more to them then just ‘Adjustments;. ”
Again, he’s saying that he’s KEEN to know more, PARTICULARLY in the light of the fact that most people he knows have a limited understanding of what Chiros do. He’s being a very open, willing-to-learn kind of guy!
Basically, you’ve unjustifiably had a go at someone for expressing an opinion by using you’re OWN opinions. That’s pretty hypocritical – and unfair, petty and illogical. (BTW, comment threads are ALL about letting people expressing opinions – even ones the host disagrees with.)
Uncool.
As for Chiropractic
Amanda:-
“Clearly you need to do more research on Chiropractors.” – I think you should do some too.
Do you know how it was started? By a con-man who practised ‘magnetic healing’ until a more profitable faith-healing scam came along.
Amanda:-
“I personally have gone to chiropractors for things other than “adjustments” and it’s quite amazing the stuff they can do.” Then you’ve sadly been duped but luckily healed yourself through the placebo effect. (The placebo effect rocks!)
it pains me that so many of these science-dodging charlatans* associate themselves with the VERY scientific Paleo/Primal movement. It drags our amazing and very progressive movement towards the lunatic-fringe BUT we embrace knowledge, so we’re open to new ideas AND ESPECIALLY – GOOD SCIENCE!
*Charlatans you say?
Well, yes. Either deliberate or unwitting but pretty much charlatans nonetheless.
My brother-in-law was a thriving chiropractor until giving it up (and all the $$$) when he learned how dangerous it was.
I didn’t listen to him.
I now have tinnitus and a permanently clicking jaw from visiting a ‘reputable’ chiro in ’92.
Now, like my brother-in-law, I believe chiropractic to be 85% malarkey. (But I’m still open to GOOD new science on the matter!)
To me there’s two kinds of chiro and it’s not about ‘mixers’ and ‘straights’:
(1) Those thoughtful, caring, amazing folks who TRULY believe in the benefits of chiropractic. They’re just as much victims as their patients are. Poor deluded muppets.
(2) Those who KNOW it’s bollocks, but love the ‘repeat business’ business model and the laughably naive phrase “I LOVE my chiro! I’ve been going to him for my back problems for YEARS!”
Of course there are the ethical ones who stick to relieving back symptoms (like ethical osteos) and I’m sure MOST truly believe they’re being helpful and caring but if they truly cared, they’d apologise to their patients, ditch the pseudo-science and take up the proven craft of physiotherapy instead.
Six of the MANY reasons to steer clear of Chiropractic:
(1) It was started by a professional con-man.
(2) Many (most?) call themselves ‘doctors’ in nations where ONLY an MD is permitted to do so. (Of course there are a few who are also MDs but this is rare).
(3) There are far too many of them who still believe that manipulating the spine can ‘cure’ diseases.
(4) Many perform ‘adjustments’ on kids (and babies!) for diseases (e.g. colic). This particularly evil sub-genus of chiro should be locked-up on mass alongside all the other child-abusers.
(5) They routinely shun good, solid science. The opposite of the paleo world.
(6) Fake machinery such as the ‘Neurocalometer’. These devices are so fake they make the dodgy devices used by Scientologists look ethical!
He mentions Sisson’s egg coffee. I tried this and it’s amazing. The best way I’ve found is to use three egg yolks, your usual dose of MCT, and a little butter or coconut oil. The egg yolks emulsify the fat and make a beautifully creamy and delicious latte sort of thing. I add cinnamon to give it a hint of sweetness, and vanilla would probably work too. It has become my weekend treat.
Egg coffee is awesome!
I agree with Simon. Calling vaccinations “toxic” could be confusing to a lot of people. I know your interview style is very non confrontal, but listening to Charles talk about the subject made me a little sick to the stomach.
Appreciate your thoughts, Tor, will take this into consideration.
I had just started listening and was ok with the first few podcasts I heard. But to allow Livingston to air his negative and obviously uninformed view on vaccination was unconsionable and dangerous. How many parents may now decide not to have their child vaccinated because they rely on what they heard on your show? How many tragedies may now occur? And you guys were giggling and laughing while discussing this serious topic? It totally destroyed your credibility with me, and I won’t be listening again.
Thanks for sharing, Jay. It’s a polarizing issue, to be sure. My point is to get people to think for themselves, not to be dogmatic or demand that my listeners follow my advice or anyone else’s without careful consideration. I’ll be bringing up the same topic with a guest who is pro-vaccination soon – stay tuned.
Is my second comment going to be approved?
Hi Simon,
Comments with 2 links have to be manually approved. It’s up – thanks!
Thanks for that, will look into it!
Thanks Abel – sorry to be so impatient!
It is important that the safety of vaccine adjuvants and preservatives is openly discussed – however, can Dr Livingston point us to the actual science which shows their harmfulness? Just stating that there are ‘toxins’ in vaccines is not enough – where is the proof that harm is being done, at the levels these substances are actually present in the vaccine? The benefits of vaccines are very real (saving lives) – if we are to forgo their use, there need to be some pretty good reasons for it.
For example, one of the most often mentioned additives in anti-vaccination scare stories is Thiomersal, a mercury compound. After decades of research, the scientific consensus seems to be that no link between its use and brain disorders such as autism exists. However, this doesn’t stop anti-vaccination groups from spreading claims to the contrary with tedious regularity (see the wikipedia article on ‘thiomersal controversy’).
Abel, I am not sure giving your airtime to Dr. Livingston is a good way to get a useful conversation starting. If one side has the current best guesses of science on their side and makes the effort to develop a coherent argument, and the other side relies on ideologically determined reflexes and gut feeling, what’s the point? You know, it reminds me of creationists and climate change deniers who want schools to ‘teach the controversy’, where there really isn’t a controversy.
I appreciate that your podcast often challenges received opinion, e.g. on nutrition – questioning things is the way real science progresses. But outsider views don’t deserve to be taken seriously just by virtue of being outsider views – the science has to stack up as well. Sometimes there is good reason the scientific community agrees on things. And no, conspiracy theories are not it.
All the best
Simon
Well said Simon! I completely agree with your assessment of the vaccination discussion in this podcast. Abel, giving a platform to people that have no science on their side is probably the most damaging thing you can do if your goal is to start a meaningful conversation. You are putting issues on the table that don’t deserve to be there, because they are based on belief, not evidence. The results is that people who advocate evidence-based practices have to spend all their time defending an already scientifically well studied position rather than moving on to more productive discussions.
Obviously, a growing proportion of the population is scared about vaccinations (we were too when we had our son). But, we soon realized the reason we were scared was because of so much misinformation floating around in the media. When we consulted scientifically vetted sources we soon realized the risks of vaccinations were far fewer than the benefits. Science is a mostly unbiased enterprise, and while the role of pharmaceutical companies can confuse some message coming from scientists, if you stick to relying on information that reflects scientific consensus you are putting your trust into very well vetted information.
Still love your show Able, and will keep listening. Thanks,
Thanks Ryan, we’ll be beefing up the evidence-based information about vaccines (and everything else) on upcoming shows. 🙂
It looks like there have already been more eloquent expressions of what I wanted to say above, but just briefly, there is basically zero evidence that vaccines cause autism. Like, none.
I get wanting to start a conversation, but not all opinions are equally deserving of a platform, which is why you don’t see “flat earth truthers” on the nightly news.
I also get the conventional medicine bashing. My father had MS for many years before it was properly diagnosed. For awhile the doctor would just tell him he was depressed, and prescribe anti-depressants (“I’m not depressed, I’m tired and weak!”). Conventional medicine also serves an important purpose. When my Dad later went off his MS meds and tried to go holistic, his condition rapidly declined until he went back on the meds.
I was very disappointed to hear the anti vaccine content of Dr. Livingstons talk. Dr. Livingston is not a virologist and his opinion is very much on the scientific fringe. I consider myself open minded about many of the things discussed on your program. However, Dr.Livingston provided no evidence to support his position. I think it would be appropriate to have an actual scientist on to discuss the merits of Dr. Livingstons assertions concerning vaccines.
I enjoy and learn from most of your work but may I please post a negative; although I could only listen until the anti-vaccination discussion appeared. I agree that not everyone needs to be vaccinated against everything (I pass on the rather ineffective flu vaccine that becomes ever more ineffective as I slip through my sixties) but it is really a social duty to vaccinate against some core diseases… small pox (and almost polio) have been eliminated through vaccines. Non-vaccinated carriers infecting others that may be too young to have completed their schedules may have some legal consequence in the near future.
Here in NZ, we are having a serious epidemic of pertussis due to non vaccinated adults and very young members of the household.
Hi Abel-
I’m new to your podcast and I was very excited by the first few episodes that I listened to, but this episode with Dr. Livington was HORRIBLE! I appreciate that you want to generate conversation and bring to light different health and wellness topics, but giving this guy airtime for his uninformed views on vaccinations and detox methods without challenging him with science and common sense was irresponsible on your part. Shame on you! This guy is full of crap! I’m a pediatric nurse and in the interest of space and time I won’t get into the science to refute his statements, I just hope there aren’t people out there dumb enough to believe him. If you need physical evidence of his dumbassness, just look at his vanity picture and tell me that guy got those muscles without drugs…..No Way!
Wow,
Typing from my iPad so brevity is key!
Reading all theses responses is “making me sick to my stomache”.
Just kidding, anyhow, there is plenty of room for people of an alternative view to share their oppinions, and clearly it is a decent method of starting conversation.
Also the guest clearly made his point that people should do their research, no one said not to take vaccines. Science is not always reliable, it does not self correct, the controversies over vaccines needs to be further looked into, yes many lives have been saved and will continue to be through vaccinations. But the toxins being used in many of the vaccines are possibly doing damage that proctor and gamble are not going to reveal in their next unavailing of the next big vaccine they release. The money to do the science is coming from the pharmaceutical companies who are neatly in bed with the government regulatory agencies ( via tax relief, lobbies ). It’s not a clear cut issue. There is very limited funding for alternative research and I would love to see the budget of Bayer be applied to some delivery of vaccines without the arsenic and various other poisons. Do you believe that science has developed a better method of feeding infants other than a healthy mother?
Has the FDA really provided a healthy food pyramid structure for the American diet?
Anyway better I wait to share some links from the desk top when I can! And to see Simon using logical fallacies to make his case, apply logic to your own rhetoric and I think you might discover that there is a desperate need for science to be held accountable for its discoveries and to constantly question the emerging ailments of the most heavily vaccinated population of the world.
Thanks, gotta go.
@mudtower
“Science does not self correct” – you must be joking.
Ever heard of Phlogiston Theory, or the Luminiferous Aether?
If I’m guilty of logical fallacies, please spell out what you mean. I make mistakes like everyone else, and I’m eager to learn.
Addendum …. Modern Science does not self correct, and hopefully we don’t have to wait for another Newton to understand human health.
I hope to have time this evening to cite evidence.
@mudtower: Obviously, official recommendations may take a long time to catch up with the science (in many cases much, much too long – listen to the latest ‘This American Life’ episode, on how long it took for the well known dangers of even mild overdoses of Acetaminophen / Paracetamol to be reflected in official recommendations). However, this is no reason to just kiss goodbye to the whole scientific endeavour. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Please tell me – on whose authority should we decide what to do? Just listen to whatever is the gut feeling of Mudtower, Livingston et al.?
By the way, I am really chuffed at the majority of the responses this podcast has generated – it says a lot about the quality of Abel’s Listenership. They certainly can spot a turd when they see one.
@Simon,
Simon I hear you loud and clear, we don’t actually disagree as much as it seems. However we are not how you say pari passu, and I tend to drain my bathwater rather than toss is out, as you could guess the baby spirals around a bit by the drain but is of no serious risk. I also like to look at the whole forrest as well as the trees. And often times sick and witherd trees may go unnoticed while viewing the whole of the forrest as easily as the whole of the forrest may go unseen due to the myopic viewing of the tree. In the words of Tree Beard Ent; “I am not all together on anyones side because no one is all together on my side.” (paraphrase).
When I look at the pharmasuetical industry I see a by and large a self regulated industry driven by profits and a government regulatory agency on the take. That is not an accusation rather and observation.
http://www.projectcensored.org/23-fda-complicit-in-pushing-pharmaceutical-drugs/
http://blogs.plos.org/workinprogress/2012/01/25/how-much-money-do-drug-companies-pay-the-fda/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/hazard/independent.html
I see an industry selling its wares through coersion.
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/16/140530716/in-texas-perrys-vaccine-mandate-provoked-anger
http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/hpv-vaccine-state-legislation-and-statutes.aspx
And I see the needs for profit out weighing the needs of the people.
http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/cervical/statistics/
Here it states on the website of the CDC that “12,357 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer.” (2009 latest stat). Yet as much as 53% of girls aged 11-12 have recieved Gardasil and Cervarix. (approx. 18million, census.gov) Here we see the CDC stating; “in the past 40 years, the number of cases of cervical cancer and the number of deaths from cervical cancer have decreased significantly. This decline largely is the result of many women getting regular Pap tests, which can find cervical precancer before it turns into cancer.”
So… 12 thousand women diagnosed with cervical cancer, 3-4 thousand deaths, 18 million relatively dangerous vaccines and the CDC stating the prevention is found largely in pap tests. Hmmm, and you are gonna expose your two 11-12 year old children to the symptoms of Gardasil and Cervarix in case they get an STD. By the way The effectiveness of the the Vaccine is diminished and nearly vanished progressively over the course of five to eight years, yet side effect symptoms may remain permenantly?
And then we can take a look at the people working at the FDA, CDC, WHO, and who they may have worked for prior!
How about just one example before bed…
Meet John M. Taylor III, J.D., Counselor to the Commissioner and Acting Deputy Commissioner for Global Regulatory Operations and Policy
http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/CentersOffices/ucm206883.htm
And who Has John been working for? Abbott Laboratories perhaps, http://www.abbott.com/index.htm.
no conflict of interest there I’m guessing.
Anyhow this web continues on and on. It’s just difficult to connect the dots and we’re expected to blindly trust science as the uncorruptable self regulating, self correcting. However the study of observable things, like powerful multinational corporations taking advantage of people with short regard for the true wellness of the population, paying billions in fines for risking the lives of so many without even batting an eye?
Next time you see a sign that says flu shot think of me, (that will probably be ten or so times a day).
I’m sure the flu shot is leggit right?, after all you can get one at the bank, the grocery store, the fire department, the library, at school, at the elks club, at the phamacy and of course at your physicians office and the ER. I’ll wait to get mine at the funeral home where there will be one less anti-vaxxer (which I’m broad brushed as but am not) to pester you about this tin foil propaganda.
In the interim, peace and love.
Mudtower Out.
Saw all of your comments…. My hero! Lol ?
Thanks for this! Vaccines are a tool. An imperfect one, but one that has also very likely quite literally saved humanity (or at least segments of it) in a number of cases mentioned in these comments.
The point of bringing this up and the main reason Dr. Charles and I talked about it (which we weren’t planning to do) is because I am very interested in how he and many others have arrived at the decision not to vaccinate. I suggest that everyone pay close attention to what they’re putting in their bodies – from food to pharmaceuticals and everything in between.
Vaccines are no exception – having worked as a consultant with many of the companies that manufacture vaccines in very sensitive scenarios, I can personally attest that we should be paying more attention to 1) the benefit the vaccine may or may not provide against its particular ailment, and 2) what precisely is contained in the delivery mechanism of the vaccine?
Kind of ironic I listened to the podcast on the drive home and then saw this post on FB tonight. I enjoy this podcast and one aspect I really like is the bio hacking of oneself. If it doesn’t work it only impacts yourself. Not the same with the vaccination argument.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3829948
Mario, that’s a great point!
@Mario: Great article – says all that needs to be said.
J.J. Keith makes an excellent point when she says that the stage shouldn’t be left to the anti-vaxxers:
“The ideas of anti-vaccine advocates have been allowed to spread because vaccinating parents tend to not be radicalized enough to bother with arguing with them. (…) Anti-vaxers are loud. The rest of us need to be loud too, because there’s nothing crunchy about a resurgence of polio.”
I admit that I have never before become so involved on any online discussion forum. As a father of two children I felt I just couldn’t leave Dr Livingston’s ill-informed opinions unchallenged.
Keith also neatly spells out what’s wrong with positions such as Kelly’s and Mudtower’s:
“Doctors aren’t infallible. However, anti-vaccine advocates are asking parents to disavow nearly the entire medical establishment and for much the same reason that cults cut off their followers from their families: If someone is to be convinced of something that cannot be supported legitimately, then legitimate sources must be discredited — however clumsily.”
Abel: I think Ben Goldacre might be an interesting guest for a future programme. He also likes to lay into the pharmaceutical industry, but from a rational / sceptical position, rather than a Woo Woo one. Maybe he also would have something interesting to to say about bad nutritional science, and how it might be improved.
Sounds terrific, Simon. Thank you for the recommendation – we’ll look into it!
Hey Abel, I am no vaccination expert and unsure about the unbiased truth. BUT thanks for having the courage to put on some alternative opinions.
As someone who suffered numerous effect of Hg (mercury) toxicity for years,
I can tell you that physiology of mercury metabolism is VERY complicated.
What is known is that neuro-toxic heavy metals like mercury can affect numerous systems in the human body beyond the brain.
That said, it is true that “alternative science” positions as most lack the science.
BUT why is there so little alternative research????
Probably the reason is that US gov / FDA, who funds huge amounts of research with grants & tax deductions to Big Pharma & certain universities, does not provide equal support.
VERY limited funding for alternative research = VERY few studies
Hi Ariel,
Mercury is a nasty neurotoxin, no question about it – however, there is practically no evidence that the level of Thiomersal used in (some) vaccines is likely to pose a problem. You would get more mercury exposure from eating 8oz of most commercial fish, than from a single dose of vaccine.
There is an obvious reason that “alternative science” doesn’t get the same research dollars as proper science – the conspicuous contenders have been exhaustively tested and proven not to work. Take Homeopathy: Despite its popularity, it is no more effective than a placebo. It would be a pity to waste any more research on it, when there’s so much real work to be done.
I very much WOULD like to see more high-quality research on the role of nutrition and exercise for health; on MCTs, on different types of Omega-3s, on intermittent fasting (especially for women), on whether wheat really is as problematic for people who don’t have coeliac disease as the majority of the paleo-scene like to think, on the long term effects of a ketogenic diet à la Jimmy Moore, on the efficiency of short bursts of intense exercise etc. etc.). I also would like to see more research on the role of the human microbiome, on the beneficial aspects of certain human parasites. I DON’t necessarily need to see more research on things like ear candling, chiropractic, aura-soma and bioresonance therapy.
To ask for “equal support” is not reasonable – there is a wacky new cure invented every day, the field of alternative cures is potentially endless. The only way to separate what works from what doesn’t is proper scientific investigation (preferably randomized double blind placebo control studies). Asking for equal treatment is similar to the case of creationists, asking that schools should “teach the controversy”, as I have pointed out earlier. Once you allow christian creationism to be taught, it poses the question: What about the gazillion other creation myths out there? Should they all be taught also?
You hit it on the head, Ariel! We need unbiased research.
So I know that we are super deep into the vaccine discussion. But I wanted to share how I make my “bullet proof coffee”. I love espresso, so I pre-freeze my Kerry gold and my MCT oil in an ice tray that has 15ml slots. Pop them out, and put them in the mug before I pull my triple shot, pull the shots on top, mix with shaker, and my bullet proof espresso is ready to drink. The best part is, no burnt mouth! Perfect temperature every time.
That’s awesome, Zack. I’m actually at Dave Asprey, the Bulletproof Exec’s house right now recording for a few biohacking TV show. Just finished my second cup of BP coffee – soooo good!
Simon,
I wanted to thank you for your comments.
I started listening to Able’s podcast because I wanted tips and inspiration for burning fat and living a healthier lifestyle, but I was terribly disappointed when I heard him giving the anti vaccination movement a platform on his show.
The decision to not have your children vaccinated is not, as someone pointed out, one that you make for just you and your family. We are now having outbreaks of diseases that were all but eradicated via vaccines and they’re occurring in communities where large numbers of parents are making the same decision Dr. Livingston did. This misguided movement has a body count.
I’m sorry, Able, but you can’t excuse yourself of responsibility for spreading misinformation by claiming you’re just starting a conversation. There was no counterbalance to Dr. Livingston’s claims, and this comment section will not be enough to make up for that fact. You have the number one podcast in the health category. It is paramount that you do your research before broadcasting advice that can have such deadly consequences.
I was particularly disgusted when he rattled off a list of scary sounding ingredients in an alarming manner. I do not understand how someone becomes a doctor without learning that toxicity is a matter of dosage. Any substance, including water, can be toxic. The ingredients listed are present in vaccines at nontoxic levels.
He mentioned formaldehyde, for instance. It’s used to sterilize vaccines and prevent contamination. Formaldehyde is already present in one’s body as a natural byproduct in far greater amounts than what’s contained in vaccines, but he and you both acted as if it was absolutely crazy that it would be used at all.
I’m all for debate, but there are times when the controversy is merely manufactured. Not all claims are equal. Some are based on hard evidence; others are rooted in fear and ignorance. The ant-vaccination movement is built on the latter.
Ken, your points are well-taken. For the record, we weren’t planning on talking about vaccination at all. I didn’t refute some of Dr. Livingston’s claims because I’m not an expert on the pros OR cons of vaccination. But having worked very closely with the manufacturers of vaccines, I can tell you that I’m not comfortable with the casual attitude so many take when shooting themselves up with substances that clearly have a serious effect on the body. Some vaccines are important, others are not. That said, I do plan on highlighting the issue of vaccination by specialists in future shows. Thanks for listening and stay tuned!
Started listing to this podcast about month ago and found it generally well informed until I hit this episode. I do not like the anti-vaccination talk. I think anti-vaccination people are heretics. And I think the conversation I found here will keep me listening. I found “Dr.” Charles Livingston’s comment that religion and the fact that “monkey cells” are in vaccines are the reason he doesn’t vaccinate is kid explains plenty. He is anti-evolution and, in my opinion, anti-science.
Able thanks for being open to different ideas and opinions, but I don’t think you are going to invite a blogger from slimfast. And anti-vaccine people should be lumped into that category.
Appreciate the input Brian! Thanks so much for listening in. – Emily, FBM Team
Numerous people that wish to make exercise good turn to dancing.
In his hurry, Darrel runs right into Gardenia, who hears the whistle.
As the cells become full of newly created virus,
you will notice swelling of the area.